Wednesday, August 15, 2007

One True Church of Allah?



Dutch bishop: Call God ‘Allah’ to ease relations

"A Roman Catholic Bishop in the Netherlands has proposed people of all faiths refer to God as Allah to foster understanding...Bishop Tiny Muskens, from the southern diocese of Breda, told Dutch television on Monday that God did not mind what he was named and that in Indonesia, where Muskens spent eight years, priests used the word "Allah" while celebrating Mass.

'Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? ... What does God care what we call him?'"


"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Catholic Church Catechism, 841

21 comments:

kmerian said...

Carrie, you left out a quote from John Paul II about Islam, here it is:

"Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity." (Crossing the Threshold of Hope)

Ellen said...

Here's the thing...you all keep telling us that if the pope is not speaking "ex cathedra", he's not infallible. The catechism is (you say) infallible.

Was John Paul II speaking infallibly?

kmerian said...

Who says the Catechism is infallible? A Catechism is merely a statement of beliefs. (Luther had one too). The Catechism does not say Muslims are saved. What JPII wrote in his book is exactly what Catholicsm teaches about Islam. If you would read what is referenced in the footnote of that passage from the Catechism, you would see that.

Carrie said...

Allah and the One, True God arenot one in the same, despite what JPII says.


“In August 1985, when he visited Morocco at the invitation of King Hassan II, he became the first pope to visit an officially Islamic country at the invitation of its religious leader.

There, at a historic meeting with thousands of Muslim youths in Casablanca Stadium, he [JPII] emphasized that "we believe in the same God, the one God, the living God."

http://www.catholicnews.com/jpii/stories/story04.htm


At the General Audience of Wednesday, 5 May, the Holy Father [JPII] spoke about religious dialogue with Islam:

“Continuing our discussion of inter-religious dialogue, today we will reflect on dialogue with Muslims, who "together with us adore the one, merciful God" (Lumen gentium, n. 16; cf. CCC, n. 841). The Church has a high regard for them, convinced that their faith in the transcendent God contributes to building a new human family based on the highest aspirations of the human heart….

We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497)….
In today's world where God is tragically forgotten, Christians and Muslims are called in one spirit of love to defend and always promote human dignity, moral values and freedom. The common pilgrimage to eternity must be expressed in prayer, fasting and charity, but also in joint efforts for peace and justice, for human advancement and the protection of the environment. By walking together on the path of reconciliation and renouncing in humble submission to the divine will any form of violence as a means of resolving differences, the two religions will be able to offer a sign of hope, radiating in the world the wisdom and mercy of that one God who created and governs the human family.”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM

Carrie said...

Catechism does not say Muslims are saved.

Then what is "the plan of salvation" in your opinion?

Ellen said...

Who says the Catechism is infallible?

Does the catechism accurately convey those beliefs that Rome claims as infallible?

If you would read what is referenced in the footnote of that passage from the Catechism, you would see that.

330 LG 16; cf. NA 3. Googled it.

kmerian said...

According to the Qu'ran. Allah is the God of Abraham, Issac and Joseph.

Why is it Muslims and Jews will admit they worship the same God, Christians and Jews will admit they worship the same God, but some Christians will have a fit if you state that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

Muslims worship the One True God, but they do it improperly.

Lumen Gentium (which is what the Catechism references) basically states that Muslims are distinct from pagans in that they worship the true God. But their improper worship is still wrong so they must be evangelized. Hence God's "plan of salvation" includes them as well.

Hope this helps.

Carrie said...

Lumen Gentium (which is what the Catechism references) basically states that Muslims are distinct from pagans in that they worship the true God. But their improper worship is still wrong so they must be evangelized. Hence God's "plan of salvation" includes them as well.

What is the point of distinction?

Carrie said...

Does the catechism accurately convey those beliefs that Rome claims as infallible?

Apparently it may not.

Ellen said...

Muslims worship the One True God, but they do it improperly.

In Rome's eyes, so do Protestants - does that mean we're on equal salvific terms as Muslims?

kmerian said...

The Catechism does convey those beliefs that Catholics consider Dogma. Could some sections be better written? Yes. But keep in mind that the Catechism is written by Catholics for Catholics. Also, I have not found any Catholic who claims that Muslims are saved. So your interpretation of this passage is in the minority.

Now, in no way does Rome equate Protestants and Muslims. While both are monotheists, Protestants are Christians, members of the body of Christ

Muslims are just slightly above pagans, in that they recognize the one true God, but they do not have his Word or his Son.

Reginald de Piperno said...

Carrie, your link to the Dutch Bishop's foolish statement is broken.

It's worth pointing out (as my link to his statement indicates) that he's not particularly orthodox, since he prefers his own opinions on contraception to the doctrine of the Church.

Hence using this fellow as an "example" would be a lot like me saying that Spong is a good example of a "faithful" Protestant.

I suggest that for the sake of charity you ought to use faithful Catholics in your examples, rather than dissidents. Golden rule and all :-)

Reginald de Piperno said...

Here's another quote from the CCC which you left out, which obviously colors things quite a bit differently:

"The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit.' God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Again: rather than suggesting that the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims will be saved as Muslims, consider the context. The Church doesn't teach any such thing. "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation" (ibid).

But which is it going to be, Carrie? Are you going to despise the Catholic Church because you (falsely) think she teaches that you have to be Catholic in order to be saved? Or are you going to despise the Catholic Church because you (falsely) think that she teaches that Muslims can be saved without converting?

Or is it just that you despise the Catholic Church no matter what she says?

Carrie said...

I suggest that for the sake of charity you ought to use faithful Catholics in your examples, rather than dissidents.

If I can't trust the words of a Bishop of the church, I certainly can't trust the words of a layperson.

Carrie said...

Reginald,

You are tossing up strawmen.

Quote me where I said any of the things you are accusing me of before continuing.

Reginald de Piperno said...

I'll ask you straight out:

If you're not accusing the Church of teaching that Muslims can be saved without converting, then what is your point in these silly Muslim posts?

Do you think that the Church teaches that one has to be Catholic in order to be saved?

Reginald de Piperno said...

If I can't trust the words of a Bishop of the church, I certainly can't trust the words of a layperson.

If you are unable to distinguish a dissident bishop from an orthodox one, then you have no business pretending that the difference doesn't matter, and it becomes obvious that any ol' brush is good enough for you in your quest to tar the Church - even if the brush is a dishonest one. And so it becomes obvious that discussion is impossible with you, and I'm done here.

If you are content to misrepresent the Church by quoting dissident bishops as though they aren't dissident, then I have nothing more to say to you.

If that is not your intent, then you are at least guilty of failing to state what your intent in these posts is...and you are to blame when you are misunderstood.

In either case I am definitely done with you. If you are deliberately misrepresenting the Church, you are dishonest and not worth taking the time to discuss things with (and you need to repent). I doubt this is the case, but it is at least possible, considering your evident hatred for the Church.

If you are merely guilty of failing to state your point...then likewise you are not worth the time required to discuss things with you, because I'd spend half my time extracting your point from you.

Say what you mean.

Carrie said...

Reginald,

I suggest you read through my posts and comments on the Muslim thing to see what issues I have problems with. And then, read through my archive to see my posts on baptism, salvation, etc.

I am well aware of the teachings you have brought up. You appear to be reading me through your own filter and completely missing my actual points.

Reginald de Piperno said...

I am not going to read your entire archive to figure out what your point is in this post.

Say what you mean.

Adios.

Ellen said...

Here's a question about the bishop.

Obviously, his stance is wrong. What should happen to him (church discipline)? What should happen to him (re: his stand on contraceptives)?

The measure of a church is not only its doctrine, but how it handles its own teachers that teach contradicting the doctrine (the same issue I have with the shuffling around of sexual predators)

Leo said...

What a scandal to the Catholic faith is this!

The infidel religions leading souls to Hell are not to be esteemed.

Catechism of the Council of Trent (+1566): “Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments.

St. Alphonsus Liguori (c. +1760): “How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.” (Sermons)

St. Ambrose, Letter 17, #1: "For salvation is not sure unless everyone worship in truth the true God, that is the God of the Christians, under Whose sway are all things; for He alone is the true God, Who is to be worshipped from the bottom of the heart; for "the gods of the heathen," as Scripture says, "are devils."


“If anyone abideth not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.” (John 15:6)

“… the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ… Nor is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

Pope Gregory XVI (+1832): “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion... You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use.” (Summo Iugiter Studio)

How blatantly JPII contradicts Traditional Catholic belief.